Two Sides of the Same Coin... illegals and immigration

After I posted a video about AZ Governor Jan Brewer To Illegals With US Citizen Children: Take Them Back Home With You that can be found on Youtube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acUf4Uqvj4Q I got some good arguments from bothsides and these two guys tell there side of the story as they see it. I know how I feel about this video and argument but I would love to hear from you about this.

T.J. Moffett I hate her so much.

July 18 at 8:07am

Glenn Piller: Why do you dislike her. If a parent is illegal they do not belong in the US, regardless if your anchor baby is legal.

July 18 at 10:48am

T.J. Moffett: The reasons I hate her are too numerous to mention here. As far as this issue goes, she's talking about deporting AMERICAN CITIZENS. How and to where do you deport an American citizen?

It's just more knee-jerk, fear-mongering nonsense that appeals to the primative parts of our brains.

July 18 at 1:02pm

Glenn Piller: Okay. then the kid can stay an go into the foster care or orphanage.

The bottom line is that the parents are here ILLEGALLY! Why do you think its okay to enter the US without permission? Every other country in the world throws illegal aliens in jail, or worse (Including Mexico). Since I live in Arizona, I can tell you we have millions of illegal aliens living here.

They cannot get legitimate jobs, so they often commit crimes to pay for their existence in Arizona.

July 18 at 3:15pm

Glenn Piller: TJ... The main people who are pissed off are those who are:

1. Here illegally

2. Who have a parent or friend here illegally

3. Make their money off illegals (landscapers, farmers, drug dealers)

July 18 at 3:17pm

Amy Todd-Gher Not true at all, Glenn. The people who are pissed off are people like me who believe (1) in human rights and (2) that racial profiling is wrong. You can see how well the Governor's policies are likely to work out here - http://lawmrh.wordpress.com/2010/04/28/arizonas-anti-illegal-immigrant-law-two-editorials-and-the-9500-libertydocumentary/

July 18 at 9:42pm

Glenn Piller: So what does an illegal look like since u are so sure there will be profiling? The law simply says that if u are breaking the law and cannot produce identification then the officer can ask u your county of origin. How is this profiling or violatiing Human rights?

July 18 at 10:12pm

Glenn Piller: Btw. The lawsuit against AZ is not about racial profiling.

July 18 at 10:13pm

T.J. Moffett: Glenn, I'm sorry but you're not correct about the AZ law. You should read it -- even just the first page.

What you have described ("if u are breaking the law and cannot produce identification then the officer can ask u your county of origin") is standard police procedure in every state. Simply put, if you or I get caught speeding or stealing gum or punching someone, we have to produce our ID so they can check for existing warrants, unpaid tickets, etc. If we don't have a U.S. ID, they're gonna check our nation of origin if we're not native speakers of American English. That's the law everywhere and no one has a problem with it.

The problem is that SB1070 requires officers to check ID for people they suspect are illegal during "lawful contact."

Lawful contact (according to the police officers I've discussed this with) means pretty much anything other than, say, breaking into your house without a warrant (that would be unlawful contact). Any cop can walk up to a person at any time and start a conversation for any reason at all -- just like I can start talking with anyone I choose. If you know a police officer, ask them. I guarantee they will back up what I'm saying.

So with this new Arizona law, if the person that the cop decides to talk to struggles with English a bit, that's probably enough to suspect him of being an illegal alien. The police officer is then required to ask for ID.

And here's the problem: there are plenty of LEGAL American citizens who struggle with English a bit. And there are many who don't struggle with English but just look similar to Mexican nationals who are here illegally. Because of those similarities, US Citizens are going to be stopped and questioned. And if they DO struggle a bit with English and have forgotten their ID, guess where they get to go? Jail. Sure, if they're a Citizen it will get sorted out eventually but, personally, I'm opposed to bothering/harassing U.S. Citizens just because they look and/or sound like an illegal alien.

July 18 at 11:36pm

T.J. Moffett: As far as the US Justice department lawsuit that challenges the Constitutionality of SB1070, you are correct, it isn't about racial profiling.

However! The Justice department is merely taking the broadest issue in order to put a stop to this trend of states creating their own immigration enforcement laws.

Think about it logically: why would you nit-pick the details of each state's new law as they come up when the overarching issue is that states are simply not allowed to create these types of laws at all? Win this one case and they'll never have to deal with any again.

Now, the Justice Department is just one of six -- SIX -- lawsuits challenging the constitutionality of SB1070. At least one is on the ground of racial profiling:

http://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights-racial-justice/aclu-and-civil-rights-groups-file-legal-challenge-arizona-racial-pr

July 18 at 11:45pm

T.J. Moffett: I live in Southern California and there are millions of illegal immigrants here as well. But -- perhaps magically -- they get all types of jobs that (mostly) pay under the table. These are the main areas I can think of:

- Construction

- Manufacturing

- Restaurant/Bar...

See More

July 18 at 11:53pm

T.J. Moffett: The main people who are NOT pissed off about SB1070 are:

- those who don't know anything about the law

- those who do know something about the law but just hate illegals so much they don't care if it the law is unconstitutional or if it negatively affects US Citizens who also happen to be Hispanic

July 18 at 11:57pm

Glenn Piller: TJ... Once you produce identification, it stops there. If you are legal in this country then it should not be an issue to produce valid US identification. A cop can pull you over for anything they want anyway. I once got pulled over to check my registration since it did not come back with his computer. I gave him the documents and I was on my way. A very small inconvenience in my opinion, since he was just doing his job.

You should your ID almost everyday. You cannot return something at a store, or even pay with your credit card without someone asking you for your drivers license. Why is it a big deal to provide it to a law enforcement officer? Being Asian myself, I will happily provide my Arizona drivers license to any police that ask for it.

Monday at 12:06am

Glenn Piller: oh.. and TJ.. you are correct... California has MILLIONS of illegals. Did you ever wonder why your state is practically bankrupt, while you have some of the highest taxes in the country?... Its because the millions of illegals are using hospital services without insurance, committing crimes and going through our penal system costing the tax payers millions. Who do you think picks up the bills for the illegals?

Monday at 12:09am

T.J. Moffett: Correct, if you produce ID, no issues.

I think instead of asking me what the big deal is, you should talk to Hispanic Americans who don't want to be stopped walking to the store. Or standing in line at a movie. Or whatever.

We have a long history in the country that says US Citizens are not required to carry ID on them at all times. Driving is one thing but just walking around is another.

And the worst thing that would happen to you or me if we forgot our ID is that we'd get a ticket. For those that struggle with English a bit, they're going to jail. That's not acceptable.

Monday at 12:10am

Glenn Piller: The bottom line is how are you even on the side of people being in this country ILLEGALLY?

Monday at 12:10am

T.J. Moffett: Glenn, you're jumping to an incorrect conclusion: I'm not "on the side" of people being in this country illegally. I, like most everyone I know (of all political affiliations) believe we need to do a much, MUCH better job of dealing with illegal immigrants. SB1070 is just a shitty law: it stomps on the US Constitution and harasses US Citizens.

Monday at 12:13am

Glenn Piller: The police already know where the illegals are, they can just do something about it. The people who have legal jobs are not living 10-20 to an apartment; to send money back to Mexico.

Monday at 12:13am

T.J. Moffett: We're bankrupt because we have a ridiculous Prop system that allows the voters to do stupid shit. And we seem to vote in crap politicians. There are many reasons but illegal immigrants using services isn't a big concern.

Monday at 12:15am

Glenn Piller: Please tell me what part of the US constitution we are stepping on? How does it harass US citizens?

Police: May I see some ID

You: Sure

Police: Have a nice day.

Monday at 12:15am

Glenn Piller: According to About.com

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

Illegals cost California residents 10.5 BILLION each year.

Monday at 12:16am

Glenn Piller: ‎"California's addiction to 'cheap' illegal alien labor is bankrupting the state and posing enormous burdens on the state's shrinking middle class tax base," stated Dan Stein, President of FAIR. "Most Californians, who have seen their taxes increase while public services deteriorate, already know the impact that mass illegal immigration is having on their communities, but even they may be shocked when they learn just how much of a drain illegal immigration has become."

Monday at 12:16am

T.J. Moffett: Go read some of the six lawsuits. Start with the US Justice department, then read the ACLU racial profiling one I posted.

Monday at 12:16am

T.J. Moffett: I wonder how much illegal aliens save us in labor costs and downstream cost of goods. I bet it's more than $10.5B a year.

Monday at 12:18am

Glenn Piller: There are BS lawsuits being brought up everyday in this country. Believe me when I say that they wont stick. The ACLU is a liberal group who often overstep their boundaries.

Monday at 12:18am

Glenn Piller: So TJ.. as long as the California people have cheap vegitables to eat, you are okay with employing people who have crossed our boarders illegally? You do realize that these employers are not paying them a fair wage for their work right?

Monday at 12:20am

T.J. Moffett: I'll bet you $5.00 it's struck down.

And the ACLU defends the BILL OF RIGHTS. I thought that was a big Tea Party, conservative mantra. We should all support the ACLU.

Monday at 12:20am

Glenn Piller: ‎90% of the countries lettuce crop comes from Yuma AZ area. I would gladly pay $1.00 more for lettuce if an AMERICAN was harvesting it. This way that worker is protected against crappy treatment and paid a decent wage so he can have a decent life too.

Monday at 12:21am

T.J. Moffett: I'm not okay with illegal immigrants (in general) because they are breaking our laws. And I don't think companies should be hiring and exploiting them. Cutting off the labor demand on our side is probably the best solution to the problem.

Monday at 12:21am

T.J. Moffett: We agree on the lettuce point.

Monday at 12:22am

T.J. Moffett: I just don't want to turn into a police state and trample civil liberties of US CITIZENS to deal with immigration. We can deal with it in other ways.

And I don't like to hear a politician like Jan Brewer vilify people who are trying to make a better life for themselves. They're not all criminals. In fact, they're not even MOSTLY criminals. She talks shit constantly because fear is an effective tool. And the poor brown people are an easy target/scape-goat. California is the way it is because of CALIFORNIANS. The same can be said of AZ, TEXAS, etc.

Monday at 12:26am

Glenn Piller: Believe me ... The police have enough to do and run into enough illegals breaking our laws to keep them busy for a good long time. I really doubt that citizens will be effected at all.

I agree that we need to cut off the companies hiring the illegals. Arizona has passed laws that can force business owners to loose their business licenses for up to a year if they get caught. The problem is that the illegals have gotten so good at forging documents (another crime) that they can get past normal checks.

Our police are no fools. They know where the illegals live and operate. These are the areas that will be hit the hardest in AZ.

Every illegal immigrant brown, black, yellow, or white has broken the law in our country and should be punished; no matter what their motivation.

Monday at 12:35am

Glenn Piller: You are right California is in the mess that it is in because of its people. Politically speaking Cali is known for being a liberal democrat state. Arizona is a conservative Republican state who is trying to take care of itself, when the federal government would not help us. 14 additional states are passing laws similar to ours right now. We are just at the front of the pack in protecting our boarders from foreigners who are breaking our laws.

Monday at 12:40am

T.J. Moffett: Conservative Republicans -- especially those who shout about strict adherence to the Constitution -- should find this bill abhorrent.

On a side note, the way you talk, I'd have to believe that Arizona is just over-run with criminals and they're mostly illegal aliens. I'd love to see some stats on that.

Monday at 12:47am

T.J. Moffett: I ask for your stats on crime because everyday i read articles like this:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/29/arizona.immigration.crime/index.html

KEY POINTS FROM THE ARTICLE:

According to FBI statistics, violent crimes reported in Arizona dropped by nearly 1,500 reported incidents between 2005 and 2008. Reported property crimes also fell, from about 287,000 reported incidents to 279,000 in the same period. These decreases are accentuated by the fact that Arizona's population grew by 600,000 between 2005 and 2008.

According to the nonpartisan Immigration Policy Institute, proponents of the bill "overlook two salient points: Crime rates have already been falling in Arizona for years despite the presence of unauthorized immigrants, and a century's worth of research has demonstrated that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes or be behind bars than the native-born."

Monday at 12:49am

Glenn Piller: TJ... Did you ever consider the constitution, bill of rights, are for people who entered this country legally. These documents are for Americans not people from other countries?

Next, you send me a link to CNN.. A liberal website. It must be the only news channel you guys get in California. There are others like Fox News if you want the other perspective. Ill see if I can find some of our unbiased LOCAL news. Less than a month ago a group of illegals with AK-47's were shot at an police officer. This maybe common place in California where you have gang violence running rampant, but is extremely unusual for AZ.

Monday at 9:42am

Glenn Piller: The crime rates have been falling in AZ due to several reasons.

1. Illegals were leaving the state due to the strict enforcement of the law by Sheriff Joe Arpaio.

2. Our economy has been in decline so the need for unskilled labor has also declined

I also think the statistic of illegal immigrants being arrested is not 100% correct. EVERY ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT IS HERE ILLEGALLY! 100% of them have committed a crime by crossing the border. They just have not been caught yet.

Monday at 9:48am

Glenn Piller: Here is the link I promised

http://policelink.monster.com/news/articles/138735-az-deputy-shot-with-ak-47-illegal-immigrants-suspected

from an unbiased website with no political agenda

Monday at 9:50am

T.J. Moffett: Joe Arpaio? Utter nonsense. He has a very small jurisdiction that has no effect on the major cities of Arizona.

Wait, CNN is a liberal website? What a waste of time this has been talking to you.

Monday at 11:00am

Glenn Piller: Sheriff Joe is the Maricopa county sheriff. This is the county where Phoenix is located (the 6th largest city in the US and where over 1/2 of the population of AZ lives). How can you say that he does not have an effect? The fact that you know of him in California means that he is having an impact enforcing the law. Can you even tell me who your county sheriff is?

How can you honestly say that CNN is not a liberal website?

They are the Anti-Fox news (conservative view point). I agree that its was probably a waste of time talking to you since...

1. You are from California

2. Since you are from Ca you are ignorant to the problems, laws, and lifestyle of AZ

3. California is being overrun by illegals and your state is welcoming them while being on the verge of bankruptcy.

Don't worry Obama will probably give you guys a bail out too, then the rest of the country can pay for your mistakes.

Monday at 11:11am

Glenn Piller: And there is no place in the constitution that you cannot be asked your country of origin. Please tell me what rights a police officer is violating when a person suspected of breaking a federal law (crossing our borders illegally) is asked to provide identification to establish who they are.

Monday at 11:20am

T.J. Moffett: My understanding is that the major cities in Arizona, including those in Maricopa county, have their own police forces and chiefs who report to the city mayor and not Arpaio.

So Jack Harris, the Chief of Police in Phoenix and critic of SB1070, reports to the mayor of Phoenix and not Joe Arpaio. Arpaio has everything OTHER THAN the cities... hence the small jurisdiction.

As for the CNN thing, without getting into bias, there are not the source of the data. It's not an opinion piece, they are just reporting on crime statistics.

If you only listen to Fox News, here's regular contributor Judge Napolitano saying SB1070 is completely unconstitutional:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKQUXhC2VXQ

Here's something else from Fox about AZ and border county crime rates declining:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/03/ap-impact-despite-calls-troops-data-shows-mexico-border-actually-pretty-safe/

But FBI crime reports for 2009 says violent crime in Arizona declined. And violent crimes in southwest border counties are among the lowest in the nation per capita — they've dropped by more than 30 percent in the last two decades. Of America's 25 largest cities, San Diego — with one out of four residents an immigrant — has the lowest number of violent crimes per capita.

Monday at 1:27pm

T.J. Moffett: Look, I know a lot more about your law (SB1070) than you do as demonstrated above.

I also know more about crime rates in Arizona and Joe Arpaio than you do as demonstrated above.

The reason I know more is that I actually read/watch conservative news all the time (in addition to liberal and moderate news) because I like to see all sides of the argument. I like to be informed, in general.

I'm pretty sure you don't look at anything that isn't blessed by Glenn Beck because you don't like having your views challenged. And you're obviously ill-equipped to defend them in a serious, fact-based debate.

Open your mind. Read more. We should both want to find common ground and serious solutions to our county's problems.

Monday at 1:34pm

Glenn Piller: You are correct that there are city police, however the sheriff still helps the local police. There are so many 'county islands' and unincorporated areas in AZ the sheriff patrols all over the place.

I actually do not listen to either Fox or CNN. I think they are both biased in their own way. I tend to look at the local news.

I disagree that you know more about 1070 or Arpaio that I do. You also do not see a problem with people breaking the law as long as its not violent. 1 in 4 Hispanics are in Arizona ILLEGALLY. If 1 in 4 people in California was a drug dealer or shop lifter would you be okay with it?

My mind is open. If you have a better idea on how we can identify undocumented immigrants other than asking them to provide identification I would love to hear it. If you think its racial profiling, just ask everyone the same question

Monday at 1:40pm

T.J. Moffett: I am not okay with people coming here illegally, as I mentioned several times earlier. It's breaking our law and it's unfair to the people who come here legally. But that's not what we were talking about.

I refute the claims made by Brewer and you that immigrants come here illegally and then become REAL criminals. She said they're all drug mules. You said they can't get real jobs so they're forced into crime. That's not true.

Don't blame serious crime on illegals. Crime is a problem across the board and statistics show that illegal immigrants are more apt to stay in the shadows and out of trouble because the consequences for them are higher.

As far as 1070, you had no idea that this law is more than just asking people for IDs when they commit crimes. That's the biggest issue of the law! That's why people are up in arms. It forces the police to look at people on the street and if they "look or act" like an illegal, they have to be questioned. That's not okay because it will affect US CITIZENS.

I don't care if it's an inconvenience to illegal aliens: my sole concern is that we don't trample on the rights of our citizens.

And the main argument against requiring ID is that it's an invasion of privacy. There are numerous conservative articles about it. It's tantamount to illegal search and seizure. The police need probably cause to ask for that type of info... which is why SB1070 made simple BEING here illegally a crime.

Monday at 2:09pm

Glenn Piller: TJ... 100% of the illegal immigrants are criminals. They broke the law crossing our boarder. They need to be punished and/or deported. Not all illegals are drug mules, but when the border patrol seizes tons of drugs every year just at Nogalas crossing alone, you have to recognize that this is where the drugs are coming from.

How can illegal immigrants get legitimate jobs with no US identification? I know when I do my tax paperwork, I have to show my driver license and SS card (or passport) So.. The next crime they commit if they get a legitimate job is identity theft which is a class 5 FELONY.

As far the argument of requiring id being an invasion of privacy, that is complete BS. You cannot even return an item at a department store without showing your ID. Possessing identification is a part of being in a civilized society.

Monday at 2:16pm

T.J. Moffett: Come on now. You're conflating two different issues and you know it. Brewer and supporters of SB1070 talk about the terrible crime rates in Arizona and how illegals are a big part of the horrible crime and they need to be stopped. They're not talking about illegal border crossings -- they're talking real crime.

And as I said before, illegals work at jobs that pay under the table. The employers are complicit in evading payroll taxes and not paying minimum wage or benefits. That's the big problem.

As for the National ID, here's an op-ed from NEWSMAX (that's as conservative a site as it gets) after 9/11:

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/25/195911.shtml

Monday at 2:49pm

Glenn Piller: TJ... I think we are on the same page.. I will agree that not all the illegals come here as drug mules or to commit violent crimes. The media does blow that out of proportion. However it still does not negate that they are breaking the law just crossing. These illegals are using Arizona's services, such as hospitals & school, while not paying state taxes to replenish this fund. Arizona is 48th in education due to the non-english speaking illegals that are in the school system. This needs to stop.

Monday at 2:56pm

T.J. Moffett: AGREED

Monday at 2:59pm